AA1A Pre buy and gross weight increase STC

Home Forums Ask the Gurus AA1A Pre buy and gross weight increase STC

Viewing 10 reply threads
  • Author
    Posts
    • #16404
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      Hello Gurus,

      1) I am in the process of purchasing an AA1A with Fletcher STC SA2477SW O-320 A2D and am looking for a Grumman knowable mechanic to perform a pre buy and annual in the Phenix Arizona area. Specifically Deer Valley Airport.

      2) If purchase is successful, I will be taking the airplane directly to Fletchair’s associated shop in Comfort Texas for the gross weight increase STC. This STC is critical for this purchase. Any possible issues that would prevent this STC being implemented?

      3) Recommendation for a ferry pilot to deliver the airplane from Deer Valley to Fletchair?

      Thank you for your help!
      Robert
      Austin Texas

    • #16405
      Jerry Getsay
      Participant

      Have the A&P mechanic do an annual inspection but skip the prebuy. He is not accountable for anything he tells you in a prebuy report. He is accountable for one year for an annual inspection which is much more thorough than a prebuy.

    • #16406
      Richard Harrison
      Participant

      I have the Collier / Fletchair STC on my AA-1B.
      As far as the Gross Weight increase on an AA-1A, this involves upgrading the main gear to the same as the AA-1B / 1C. Same gear legs but with the addition of the spring plates and probably replacing the brackets that attach the gear to the spar. Fletchair should have all the parts to do this. This gives you a GW of 1560 pounds, which most of the increase is used up by the heavier engine, prop, oil cooler, and main gear leg upgrade (those spring plates are heavy).
      Also make sure the nose strut was changed. The engine STC calls for the -507 strut from a Cheetah / Tiger, but could be done with a -506 strut (late AA-1B/C and Traveler strut) if you can show adequate prop clearance.
      I can’t help with finding a Grumman mechanic in your area, but Bill Shephard I believe is based at Deer Valley and he has been rebuilding an AA-1B. Maybe he has some contacts that could help. Look for his reports on his project in the Restorations forum.

    • #16407
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      Thank you for the input!

      I have been in contact with Rags Rettzo about a Pre-buy/annual whom I found on this site. Looked like he was a host for one of the Grumman meet ups to discuss Grumman maintenance. Any experience with him?

      The plane has a useful load now of 350lbs and need to get it to as close as possible to 450lbs useful load for two place training. Here are my thoughts?
      * Install the Gross Weight increase stc to gain back net 55lbs.
      * Possibly move battery aft to remove tail ballast (amount of ballast is unknown)
      * remove wheel pants for training, 9 lbs?
      * Possibly install G5s or AV30s and remove vacuum system, 12 lbs?
      * Possibly remove interior for training (weight unknown, would want to refurbish anyway, would just delay re-install)

      I would very much appreciate confirming my estimated numbers on weight savings and any other tricks to shave weight.

      Engine has Sky Tec Starter
      Alternator unknown

      If I move forward I am getting the plane at a very good price to allow this work to fix the useful load issue.

      Thanks as always!
      Robert

    • #16408
      Richard Harrison
      Participant

      So this plane has an empty weight in the 1150 range? That is a bit high.
      Yes, look at the log book entries on when the STC was done on how much ballast was installed.
      As a comparison, my AA-1B has an empty weight of 1113. This is with the 0320-A2B, no wheel pants, stock starter and alternator, battery on the firewall and about 7 1/2 lbs of ballast under the vertical fin. The AA-1B under this STC has a GW of 1600.
      If you have more then say 10 or 12 lbs of ballast then consider moving the battery. Down side is it makes the battery hard to get at and service.
      On removing the interior, I don’t think you gain much by doing that unless a previous owner did something like cover the old plastic with fiberglass or some material to cover the broken plastic.
      The factory wheel paints are something like 17 pounds with all the mounting hardware I think. Then if all the Tiger fairings were added (gear leg, brake fairing, etc.) that will add up.
      On my AA-1 Yankee project I plan on moving the battery aft, partly due to the different airfoil on the AA-1 where the center of lift is further aft requiring the CG be back further. I hope to use either the TSO’ed Odyssey or ideally the EarthX battery back there if my IA thinks he can get approval to do that.
      See the pictures of the AV30’s I just put in the Yankee panel.
      I am hoping to see the Yankee weigh in around 1100 pounds or less, using David Fletcher’s Vans RV style wheel paints and Tiger clean-up, no vacuum system, and little or no ballast in the tail using the 0320-E2G.
      If you buy this plane, be sure to post pictures!

    • #16413
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      Richard
      Thanks again for the great info and your panel looks great! How much weight do you estimate you saved by exchanging the two instruments and pulling the vacuum system out?

      Rags Rettzo who has a Grumman shop south of Phoenix is reviewing logs and putting his eyes on her today. If all clear, we will proceed with Annual/pre-buy first of next week.

      Attached is a pic of this sexy little lady!
      Curious, does the CY & P stenciled on either side of the Yankee emblem have significant meaning in the Grumman world?

    • #16414
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      File was to big, here she is.

      Attachments:
      You must be logged in to view attached files.
    • #16416
      Richard Harrison
      Participant

      I have not weighed the components, but the consensus is a savings about 10 lbs.
      Great looking bird. It has the DMA wheel pants, not sure how they compare in weight to the factory pants but would guess they are lighter.
      If those are the rubber main gear leg fairings, those are a bit heavy.
      Piper spinner which was an option on the engine STC.
      CY & P have no meaning to me.
      I owned for a time AA-1A N9300L which was painted in the same red with white trim as that, so guessing that is original paint with decals added. Looks good!

    • #16461
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      Considering the addition of the O-320 STC and weight increase STC with the installation of the gear spring plates and brackets to match the AA-1B, what else would be different between the 1A and 1B to account for the difference in CG envelops and allowed gross weight?

      I hear these planes are often flown over gross with the O-320 and although I don’t endorse flying outside of the numbers, I do understand sometimes numbers are restricted due to complications/expense of certifying an STC (O-320 rpm red line for example). I am trying to understand what are real world safe limits with the gross weight and if it would be safe to consider flying the 1A to 1B numbers with O-320 and after gear mods?

    • #16462
      Richard Harrison
      Participant

      Part of the problem with the AA-1A is being the first Grumman certified with the “Cuffed” wing, I don’t think American fully tested the flight envelope. The rear side of the envelope moved up to 80″ from the Yankee 81″ due to the airfoil change, but the forward end of the envelope stayed the same as the AA-1. This gave the AA-1A a very small CG envelope. When the AA-1B was developed the forward CG was expanded, with no change in the aerodynamics of the airframe. To my knowledge no one has ever tried to addressed the narrow CG envelope in the AA-1A through an STC. Do I think it is safe to operate and AA-1A with within the CG range of the AA-1B at the same weight? I would think so, but it would not be legal. See the attached graph of the AA-1 series CG ranges.
      At the STC GW of 1560 in the AA-1A, the CG envelope is only about 1/2″ wide. In my AA-1B which went to 1600, the CG is about 1 1/4″ wide.
      In the AA-1A and -1B, you do not want the CG to get behind 80″, the aircraft gets very pitch sensitive, and stall characteristics may not be to your liking.
      In my AA-1B at the forward CG limit I still have plenty of elevator authority on landing and can hold the nose off.
      The last item on the AA-1A the limits the max GW is the wing spar material was changed when the AA-1B came out. For this reason, you can us an AA-1B wing legally on an AA-1A as a replacement, but you cannot use an AA-1A wing on an AA-1B.

      Attachments:
      You must be logged in to view attached files.
    • #16467
      Robert Barlow
      Participant

      Richard

      Thanks for the great info! Pre-buy/annual starts today. Hoping all goes well!

      Robert

Viewing 10 reply threads
  • You must be logged in to reply to this topic.